Mary Johnson-Roy first came to StoryCorps in 2011 to speak with Oshea Israel, the man who murdered her son. In the latest episode from our special series celebrating StoryCorps’ 20th anniversary, we’ll share updates on a conversation none of us imagined would happen back when StoryCorps started.
Released on December 5, 2023.
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JM: Over the last year, Mary Johnson-Roy has been getting a steady stream of visitors… all there to basically say one thing…
CONNIE: Thank you, Mary. I love you.
ANN: I thank you so much just for being in my life. I love you, sister Mary.
PRINCESS: Thank you Mary Johnson-Roy.
MG: Mary lives in Minneapolis. And has spent many years supporting mothers who have lost children to homicide.
CONNIE: If it wasn’t for Mary, I don’t know where I would be as a grieving mother. Well, I know that I wouldn’t be here.
MG: Mary’s dedicated to this work because in 1993, she lost her own son, Laramiun Byrd.
JM: But there’s something else about Mary that makes her uniquely qualified to do this work…
Her connection to the man who killed her son…
Mary: My name is Mary Johnson.
Oshea: I am Oshea Israel. My relationship to Mary Johnson is: I’m her second son.
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JM: From NPR, this is StoryCorps Then and Now… celebrating 20 years of StoryCorps. I’m Jasmyn Morris…
MG: And I’m Michael Garofalo. This week… a story you have to hear to believe.
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JM: Let’s start at the beginning… in the 80s, when Mary Johnson-Roy was a single mother raising her only child in Minneapolis…
MJR: My son, Laramiun, was intelligent. Sixth grade he was at a twelfth grade reading level. He went to a private school, so he was the little preppy. He grew up in church, so he always had a suit on on Sundays.
JM: Fast forward to 1993…when Laramiun was 20…
MJR: He was blessed with the brains to do something differently, but that’s the lifestyle that he chose: selling drugs, you know, fast money.
MG: One night, he went to a party, where he crossed paths with Oshea Israel, who was 16 at the time. They got into a fight… and Oshea shot and killed him.
JM: Oshea was convicted of murder and sent to prison.
And over the years, Mary struggled to make sense of what happened to her son. And after a decade of trying to find peace… she decided to try something different… to visit Oshea in prison.
Regina Irwin (RI): I’m telling you, what took place that day was amazing.
MG: That’s Regina Irwin, one of Mary’s closest friends who went with her to the prison that day…
RI: As Mary was walking up to go to the prison, she stopped and she looked at me, and she said, “Regina, I can’t do it.” And Mary was bending down almost like she was in labor. And as we got inside, she eventually told the woman that was gonna take us in to meet Oshea, that she had to go to the restroom. And when she came out, she had prayed… and she was ready to go in.
As we were sitting at the table to meet Oshea, they had left a pitcher of water but they didn’t leave a glass for the man that had taken her son’s life. And Mary said “I will not sit here and not allow him to have a glass that he can drink water from just like everyone else here.” And the guards brought in a glass for him to drink.
MG: We’ll let Mary and Oshea tell you what happened next. This is from a conversation they had in 2011… shortly after Oshea finished serving his sentence.
Mary Johnson (MJ): You and I met at Stillwater Prison. I wanted to know if you were in the same mindset of what I remembered from court, where I wanted to go over and hurt you. But you were not that 16-year-old. You were a grown man. I shared with you about my son.
Oshea Israel (OI): And he became human to me. You know, when I met you it was like, ok, this guy is real. And then, when it was time to go, you broke down and started shedding tears and the initial thing to do was just try and hold you up as best I can– just hug you like I would my own mother, you know.
MJ: After you left the room, I began to say: ”I just hugged the man that murdered my son.” And I instantly knew that all that anger and the animosity, all the stuff I had in my heart for 12 years for you– I knew it was over, that I had totally forgiven you.
OI: As far as receiving forgiveness from you– sometimes I still don’t know how to take it because I haven’t totally forgiven myself yet. It’s something that I’m learning from you – I won’t say that I have learned yet– because it’s still a process that I’m going through.
MJ: I treat you as I would treat my son. And our relationship is beyond belief. We live next door to one another.
OI: Yeah. So you can see what I’m doing– you know first hand.
MJ: Uh-huh…
OI: We actually bump into each other all the time leaving in and out of the house. And, you know, our conversations, they come from ”Boy, how come you ain’t called over here to check on me in a couple of days? You ain’t even asked me if I need my garbage to go out!”
MJ: Uh-huh.
OI: I find those things funny because it’s a relationship with a mother for real.
MJ: Well, my natural son is no longer here. I didn’t see him graduate. Now you’re going to college. I’ll have the opportunity to see you graduate. I didn’t see him getting married. Hopefully one day, I’ll be able to experience that with you.
OI: Just to hear you say those things and to be in my life in the manner that which you are is my motivation. It motivates me to make sure that I stay on the right path. You still believe in me and the fact that you can do it despite how much pain I caused you– it’s amazing.
MJ: I know it’s not an easy thing, you know, to be able to share our story together. Even with us sitting here looking at each other right now, I know it’s not an easy thing. So I admire that you can do this.
OI: I love you, lady.
MJ: I love you too, son.
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MG: After that interview aired on NPR… Mary and Oshea continued sharing their story far beyond Minneapolis.
JM: They hit the road… visiting churches, synagogues, and prisons…=
OI: We were invited to a lot of different places. We’ve had a lot of moments, us walking through the airports together, trying to figure out where we’re going. And as we share our story, we still get to hear each other’s parts which brings us even more closer. And it seemed like the mission kind of took off, even to the point where it grew its own legs and started running.
MG: They were on every national media outlet you can think of and international too.
She spoke at conferences around the world on love and forgiveness and met with world leaders. President Barack Obama even thanked her for her service.
JM: That’s all because of how Mary has helped other families who have lost children to homicide.
She started an organization in 2005 called From Death to Life… that provides healing groups for mothers on both sides of a tragedy, and encourages forgiveness when mothers are ready.
MG: And through her work… she met the love of her life… a man named Ed Roy.
Ed Roy (ER): When my first-born and my one and only son was murdered, my daughters had asked me to go to the church to hear you speak. I wasn’t ready for the forgiveness part, but I was at a loss. Like I shared with you, I thought God took my boy and was punishing me for my own crimes. I had joined the gangs early and pulled my first armed robbery at 11 years old. But with you being there, I saw hope. You took me under your wing; that’s why I called you my angel.
Then I remember, I had that dream — that was just before our wedding. And your son was saying, ”Yeah, Mom! Alright!” You know, ”Right on!” And my son was saying, ”Yeah, Dad. ‘Bout time you got it right!” [Laughs]
MJR: [Laughs]
ER: As the years and time goes by, you know where I’ve been. You know where I hurt.
MJR: And I know you take care of me when I’m not doing well. The anniversary is coming up of my son’s murder and I’m grateful to have someone there that has experienced the same thing that I have.
ER: That empty hole is always going to be there in our hearts. But I feel like when we together and we able to listen to one another’s heartbeats, it says a lot.
MJR: I’m thankful; I really am. You’re a good man.
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MG: They recorded that interview in 2017. But recently, Ed has had to care for Mary in an entirely different way.
Stay with us…
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JM: 10 years after we first met Mary… she was diagnosed with Lewy Body Dementia… sometimes described as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s all rolled into one.
MG: And her husband, Ed, has been her main caretaker.
Just a few months ago… the two of them sat down for another interview.
ER: There was a lot of things that neither one of us didn’t understand. It was things like leaving something on the stove, parking your car a few houses down the street. And as it progressed, we started understanding together what we was up against. Like, when you started seeing things — the invisible people. And we talked about it, honey. You know, we made humor out of them. We call them the little people [Laughs].
MJR: [Laughs]
ER: Like when you had several bowls of cereal out and you was feeding them. And I said, “You giving all my Cap’n Crunch to the little people. What about me?” [Laughs] And you started laughing, you know. We have so many moments.
MJR: Yeah, I need to write them down.
ER: They are written down. They are written down in our hearts, honey.
Sometimes I think about when people say that a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
MJR: …to waste. yeah.
ER: But you know what? The heart is the terrible thing to waste.
You know, don’t think about just the memory things; we’re here to remember for each other. Don’t worry about the reading because I’m here and read to you.
MJR: How many men would do the things that you do as far as taking care of me? Like putting on my shoes today.
ER: That’s what it’s all about.
MJR: Yeah.
ER: You know, it’s about us taking care of one another. You’ve given me, Mary, a reason for living. I always told you that, though.
MJR: Uh-huh.
ER: So that’s what I see you doing and giving to other people is hope. You have to have some kind of hope to hold on to. When you don’t have that, you don’t have nothing.
So, it’s true. It’s true what they say about when, uh, when they say wait on God, that he’ll send you that person. You know, he knew what was in my heart.
MJR: Wow. I love you.
ER: I love you.
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JM: When word of Mary’s illness started to circulate among the families she’s helped… that’s when the visits we told you about earlier began…
BRIAN: You’ve got a full slate of visitors for today.
MARY: Why are you saying somebody wants to come and sit and talk to me?
BRIAN: Oh Mary, the world would be lined up if they were invited.
MG: That’s Brian Mogren. One of Mary’s close friends and the Director of the St. Jane House, where Mary’s healing groups have been meeting for more than 15 years.
JM: He started hosting “Thursdays with Mary” … so family and friends… including those Mary has helped… can now help her remember her impact. And at Mary’s request… Brian’s been recording these conversations.
GWEN: When I saw Brian’s note about meeting with you on Thursdays, I’m like, Oh, let me get my name on that list. Cause I want to see my friend.
MARY: Yeah. I’m so glad that you did.
JM: That’s Mary’s longtime friend Gwen Chandler.
GWEN: Baby, you will never have any idea how much you’ve influenced people’s lives. And people will be saying your name for generations and generations.
MICHELE: I met someone recently, her brother was murdered when she was younger, and she wants to meet the person who killed her brother.
MG: Michele Braley is a social worker who was also with Mary at the prison the day that Mary met Oshea… And they’ve been friends ever since…
And she said, partly, she had the courage to do that because she knew of your story and that you met Oshea. She’s never met you but you gave her courage. You know, we don’t know all the lives we impact, do we? You know, but I wanted to get a chance to tell you that, Mary.
JM: And despite her illness…Mary’s still been helping to run her healing group for mothers every other Saturday…
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CONSTANCE: My name is Constance Styles and my son Dante Gray was murdered in 1994.
EBONY: Well I’m Ebony Robinson. My son’s name is Andre Riley Jr and I lost him July 3rd, 2016.
CONNIE: My son was murdered in 2016, December 25th.
ANGEL: My name is Angel Cradle. The loss of my son Dewayne Tyson Sr. happened in 2007 and the loss of my grandson Dewayne Tyson Jr. happened in 2018.
ANN: My name is Ann and my son, Maurice Wilson, was killed October the sixth, 1997.
PRINCESS: My name is Princess Titus and my son, Anthony Titus, was hit by a bullet intended for another child two weeks after his 16th birthday, right before the fireworks on July 4th, 2010.
JM: Some of the mothers who were there this particular day… turned the tables on Mary…
PRINCESS: Do you mind if we spend some time sharing with you, Mother Mary, what you mean to us?
MARY: Ok. Amen
PRINCESS: All right. Amen.
I remember calling Mary around Mother’s Day. She said, this is just how it gets around Mother’s Day and holidays are gonna be like that. So to have a woman who did walk that walk to let me know that I was not crazy and that we were not alone. Loneliness doesn’t help grief and Mary did not allow us to be lonely.
EBONY: So we’re forever grateful to you, Ms. Mary. It’s not a happy situation, but we are blessed to be able to have you as our shepherd.
ANN: Ooh, sister Mary, you mean the world to me. I admire you so much. No matter how hard things have been for you lately, you are still here teaching us and showing us what true love is.
PRINCESS: I think we all in tears around the table now. So Mary, thank you for modeling… shining your little light everywhere you go. Thank you Mary Johnson-Roy.
MARY: Love you, ladies.
MOTHERS: We love you.
MARY: Appreciate you so much, you don’t know.
MG: But for all that’s happened over the past year… there was one person who hadn’t had this kind of conversation with Mary yet… Oshea.
JM: Her illness has affected him too. It’s hard to see this woman who has meant so much to him declining. She’s not able to travel anymore or share their story together, which was such a big part of his life. It gave him purpose. So as much as she still means to him, he’s been hesitant to talk with her directly about her health.
But finally, this summer, Oshea decided to sit down with Mary again… and StoryCorps was there to record it.
OI: Well Mary, it’s been 12 years since we sat down for our first StoryCorps interview and it’s more emotional for me this time. You know, with everything that we’ve been through and we’ve dealt with and everything that’s going on now. You know, it hurts to see. I’m used to the lady that fusses at me all the time. (Laughs) But you’re strong and you’re going to fight for whatever you believe in. And I still see you fighting.
MJR: I’m glad to see you. I’m glad to see how you’re doing. So I thank God for that chance today.
OI: A lot has changed. I, myself, have two children: my son, he’s three. And a little girl.
MJR: She’s how old now?
OI: She’s six years old now. I remember when she was born you helped me get the car seat for her. But since we were living next door to each other, you left me for another fella. His name is Ed [Laughs].
MJR: [Laughs]
OI: I remember when I first got wind of you and Ed going out on dates. I’m like, wait, what’s going on? You was mine. [Laughs] But you all blessed me with the opportunity to not only be present in the wedding but to walk you down the aisle, that was, like, again, your words: beyond belief.
MJR: Yeah. I’m proud of you. I’ve been proud for a while.
OI: It has been an amazing journey. From a hug to you becoming a grandmother through me with my kids, to you just being a beacon of light to a lot of people. On our last interview we ended it with me saying “I love you, lady.” And I still feel the same way.
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JM: Mary’s still living at home with Ed… and goes to a daytime memory care center three times a week. Brian has set up a GoFundMe to help support them.
But one thing is clear… even as Mary’s memory dims… her light does not.
MJR: This little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine, yeah. This little light of mine… Yeah, I’m gonna let it shine. Let it shine, let it shine. Let it shine. Everywhere I go.
Mothers: Everywhere I go…
MJR: I’m gonna let it shine…
Mothers: I’m gonna let it shine…
MJR: Yes…
Mothers: Everywhere I go, I’m gonna let it shine.
MJR: Everywhere…
Mothers: Everywhere I go…
ALL: I’m gonna let it shine… Let it shine. Let it shine. Let it shine.
MJR: Yeah, Jesus gave it to me, yeah he did.
ALL: I’m gonna let it shine. Yeah Jesus gave it to me, I’m gonna let it shine. Jesus gave it to me, and I’m gonna let it shine. Let it shine. Let it shine. Let it shine.
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MG: This episode was produced by Jasmyn Morris and Jud Esty-Kendall. Our Technical Director is Jarrett Floyd.
JM: Max Jungreis is our Associate Producer. Special thanks to Ian Gonzalez, Gaspar Caro, Liyna Anwar, Roselyn Almonte and especially…Brian Mogren. Without him..none of these recordings would have been possible.
MG: Artwork for this episode was created by Liz McCarty, you can see it on our website. There, you can learn more about recording your own interview.
I’m Michael Garofalo.
JM: And I’m Jasmyn Morris.
Join us again next week for our final episode… as we wrap up this special series…
As always, thanks for listening.
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