StoryCorps’ initiatives have long helped us gather voices that are usually omitted from the historical record, like our LGBTQ+ Outloud initiative. In our continuing celebration of twenty years of StoryCorps, we’re sharing some of our favorite recordings from that collection… and how a story close to our founder Dave Isay’s heart helped lead to its creation.
Released on November 28, 2023.
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Michael Garofalo (MG): We’ve mentioned a lot of numbers over the past few episodes… 27,000 interviews on the mobile tour… 17,000 interviews in just one day when we released the app. But StoryCorps doesn’t just care about numbers…
Jasmyn Morris (JM): WHO records interviews is just as important as how many we collect. If we’re building an archive of American voices… we need to make sure that the archive reflects who actually lives here in the United States.
MG: So while StoryCorps is open to anyone who wants to do an interview… we’ve worked to make sure that stories and voices that don’t often get included in the historical record ARE captured in the StoryCorps archive.
JM: We call these efforts “initiatives”… you’ve heard about one already – StoryCorps Griot.
MG: There’s been quite a lot… like, Historias… or Military voices…
JM: Our 9/11 initiative
MG: We did one for people with Memory Loss…
JM: …and another inviting immigrants to record…
MG: But on this episode… we’re going to focus on just one of the many that we’ve done… our collection of LGBTQ voices… called StoryCorps OutLoud…
Joseph Patton: To be in the service for my country is the greatest thing I thought I did but I was kicked out for being homosexual.
Elizabeth Coffey Williams: When I first came out they didn’t have the words that they have today. So, attempting to tell your extraordinarily loving blue-collar parents that you were transgender was tantamount to telling them I was from Jupiter.
Jerry Nadeau: We got married at the veterans home and we said, ’If you came to see the bride, you’re out of luck!’ [Laughs] Do you remember that?
John Banvard: Yes, of course!
MG: I’m Michael Garofalo.
JM: And I’m Jasmyn Morris. From NPR… this is StoryCorps Then and Now… celebrating 20 years of StoryCorps.
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JM: So we thought if we’re telling the story of StoryCorps this season, recording and sharing stories from LGTBQ folks has always been a part of that work and so why is that built into your fabric as a documentary radio producer and the founder of StoryCorps?
Dave Isay (DI): It’s always been an issue that’s, you know, close to my heart. I’m the proud son of a gay dad.
MG: That’s Dave Isay… Jasmyn recently sat down with him to talk about the origins of OutLoud.
DI: My dad was named Richard Isay, and he was a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst. For many years, he saw only gay patients and was kind of a revolutionary in the psychoanalytic world in saying that homosexuality was not a disease and advocating in the work he did for helping LGBTQ folks find love. So that was his mission in life.
I accidentally discovered he was gay when I was 21 and our nuclear family exploded. Despite, you know, many hints and clues, I was taken completely by surprise. And I was really unhappy about a lot of things, uh, and confused about a lot of things. And I withdrew from my dad for a while and it was about that time that I started making radio documentaries.
At some point after my dad came out, he did tell me the story of the Stonewall riots, which I knew nothing about. And it was just a year or two later that I made my first radio documentary and I decided to make it on Stonewall. It was the first oral history of people who had been at Stonewall, believe it or not.
Martin Boise: I remember on that night, when we saw the riot police, all of us drag queens, we linked arms like the Rockettes and sang the song we used to sing. “We are the village girls. We wear our hair in curls. We wear our dungarees above our nelly-knees” and the police went crazy hearing that and they just immediately rushed us. We gave one kick and fled.
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DI: A lot of these folks had never been interviewed before about what had happened on that day. And I was very interested in what life was like before Stonewall.
Sylvia Rivera, who’s kind of known as the Rosa Parks of the Stonewall movement, became one of my best friends and was the centerpiece of this radio documentary, which was named Remembering Stonewall, and I dedicated it to my dad.
SYLVIA RIVERA: The era before Stonewall was a hard era. There was always the gay bashings on the drag queens by heterosexual men, women, and the police. We learned to live with it because it was part of the lifestyle at that time, I guess, but none of us were very happy about it.
JM: In some ways, was that you trying to figure out this time in your life where there was a secret, like, life before your dad coming out?
DI: Yeah. I was very interested to understand what he had gone through. And, you know, once he came out, I had found out things like, you know, he had been entrapped in a restroom, and he had to beg the cops not to put his name in the paper and, you know, destroy his life.
And he had been a rising star in the world of psychoanalysts, and that star was completely extinguished the minute he came out. He was shunned and, you know, refused positions and he was very moved by the fact that I had made this documentary. And, you know, it was me making an effort to understand him. And, um, that was the beginning of our rebuilding our relationship with each other.
Many, many, many years after that, I started StoryCorps. And I guess you could say that there was something about not being crazy about secrets in our lives that was part of the motivation behind starting StoryCorps – giving people the chance to say the important things to the people who are most important to us.
MG: And that included Dave. Here he is talking with his dad in 2004….
DAVE AND DAD INTVW
Dave Isay (DI): What truly was the happiest moment of your life?
Richard Isay (RI): I think I am happier now than I’ve ever been in my life. So it’s, um, happiness is a continuing process.
DI: How do you want to be remembered?
RI: Where am I going? I don’t think much about that.
DI: You think about dying?
RI: All the time.
DI: Are you scared of dying?
RI: No, I think about not having good times with Gordon anymore. It’s, uh, it’s more an absence of that.
DI: What do you think is the most important thing that you’ve accomplished in your life? What are you proudest of?
RI: Very proud of you kids. I am very proud of the work I’ve done and I am proud of being able to turn my life around and make it into a happy and good one.
DI: Were you unhappy when I was a kid?
RI: No, I think I was happy when you were a kid. And I was a good father and I loved having kids. You think I was a good father?
DI: I think you were a good father. You’re still a good father.
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DI: My dad got sick in 2012 on a Friday. He was diagnosed with cancer and he died the next week. And he actually died on the anniversary of Stonewall on June 28th, 2012.
At the memorial service, I announced that in honor of my dad, we would be recording stories of people who were alive before Stonewall and that’s where it all began. And then, you know how I am—
JM: Yeah.
DI: I’m like a dog with a piece of steak, you know? After my dad died, there was no way that this thing wasn’t gonna get done, if it killed me. And you know, that’s the way I, I guess, that I deal with, you know, grief or, or any issues, is that I just stay focused on StoryCorps and get something new done. I decided, you know, come hell or high water, we were going to do this program, which we named OutLoud.
MG: It launched in June 2014… LGTBQ people from all walks of life came in to tell stories of love… loss… resiliency and creativity… and… family.
JM: So in keeping with Dave’s story… we’re spending this episode hearing conversations about family…
MG: This first one is set in a small farming town in Washington State… where Patrick Haggerty was growing up in the 1950s. At StoryCorps he told his daughter, Robin, about something that happened in high school. There was an assembly that day and Patrick was going to perform.
Patrick Haggerty (PH): I’m riding to school with my oldest brother, and on the way to school, I’m putting glitter all over my face. And my brother said, ”What in the hell are you doing?” And I said, ”I’m putting on my costume.” And he said, ”Well, I wouldn’t be caught dead wearing that.” So he dropped me off at the school, and he called my dad up, and he said, ”Dad, I think you better get up there. This is not going to look good.”
So my dad drove up to the high school. And he had his farmer jeans on and they had cow crap on them, and he had his clodhopper boots on. And when I saw him coming, I ducked around the hall and hid from him. And it wasn’t because of what I was wearing, it was because of what he was wearing.
So, the assembly goes well, and I climb in the car and I’m riding home with my father. My father says to me, ”I was walking down the hall this morning, and I saw a kid that looked a lot like you ducking around the hall to avoid his dad. But I know it wasn’t you, cause you would never do that to your dad.” And I squirmed in my seat, and I finally busted out and I said, ”Well dad, did you have to wear your cow-crap jeans to my assembly?”
Robin Bolland (RB): [Laughs]
PH: And he said, ”Look, everybody knows I’m a dairy farmer. This is who I am.” And he looked me square in the eye. And then he said, ”Now, how bout you? When you’re a full-grown man, who are you gonna go out with at night?” And I said, ”I don’t know.” And he said, ”I think you do know, and it’s not gonna be that McGlaughlin girl that’s been making goo-goo eyes at you but you won’t even pick up the damn telephone.”
“Now, I’m gonna tell you something today, and you might not know what to think of it now, but you’re gonna remember when you’re an adult. Don’t sneak. Because if you sneak, like you did today, it means you think you’re doing the wrong thing. And if you run around spending your whole life thinking that you’re doing the wrong thing, then you’ll ruin your immortal soul.” And out of all the things a father in 1959 could have told his gay son, my father tells me to be proud of myself and not sneak.
My reaction at the time was to get out in the hay field and pretend like I was as much of a man as I could be. And I remember flipping 50-pound bales three feet up into the air going, ”I’m not a queer. What’s he talking about?”
RB: [Laughs]
PH: But he knew where I was headed. And he…he knew that making me feel bad about it in any way was the wrong thing to do. I had the patron saint of dads for sissies, and no, I didn’t know at the time, but I know it now.
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MG: Patrick Haggerty remembering his father, Charles Edward Haggerty. Patrick was the founder of Lavender Country – which he called the world’s first openly gay country band. He died in 2022.
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JM: How have you seen things change in the way that we talk about and the way we tell stories from the LGBTQ community?
DI: I remember when I did the Stonewall documentary, I was trying to get newspapers to cover it, and I called the major newspaper in New York and said, you know, “we have this documentary, the first oral history of Stonewall, would you like to do a story about it?” And they said, “we don’t do stories about those kinds of people.”
I like to think that at StoryCorps, we just, you know, whisper truths in people’s ears. And what we try and do is find stories that haven’t been told before that creep up behind you and help you see yourself and someone who you might have thought was very different than you. And I think we’ve done that from the first days of StoryCorps. So I think, you know, nothing’s changed. We just, do our best to, you know, help be the vehicle through which people can have their stories told to the world.
MG: More of those stories coming… after the break. Stay with us…
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JM: Welcome back – we’re listening to conversations from StoryCorps OutLoud… our initiative to collect and preserve the stories of LGBTQ people across the country.
MG: M.J. Seide fell in love in the early 1990s. Her partner had already been married and raised children… even grandchildren…
JM: Which meant that M.J. suddenly became a grandma, too… Here she is with her 12-year-old granddaughter, Genna Alperin.
Genna Alperin (GA): How has your life been different than what you thought it was gonna to be?
MJ Seide (MS): I thought that my life was probably not one that was gonna be worth living. There was this hole that I had all of my life because, I never thought I’d be able to walk along the beach and hold somebody’s hand because I’m gay. But, you know, when I fell in love with Mamommy, I knew that she was my soulmate. Do you know what I mean by that?
GA: Yeah.
MS: I’d never felt that way about anyone before. And um, after she had gotten her divorce from grandpa Jim, she was very upfront with your mom. She told your mom that she was in love, and it was with a woman. And that was the first time that anyone was proud to say that they loved me. That made me the happiest I’d ever been in my life.
And then, when I got to know your mom and uncle Justin, I knew that I had hit paradise because I now have a family that I can wrap my arms around.
GA: Is there anything that you’ve never told me that you wanna tell me now?
MS: You know, you and I talk about most things but this is the first time that we’ve ever talked about the fact that I’m gay and I guess what I wanna ask you is, does it embarrass you to have a gay grandma?
GA: No
MS: No?
GA: It doesn’t really matter
MS: It doesn’t.
GA: It just matters my relationship with you.
MS: I always tell you how much I love you, but I don’t know that you can really understand the depth of it, because you’re someone that I never thought would be in my life and I can’t imagine my life without you. You have always been a child that makes up her own mind and, I always knew that you were going to grow up to be a woman that we would all be very, very proud of.
GA: Well, um. You’re one of my favorite grandmas. You do, like, a lot of things with me like ride roller coasters and (GA & MS laugh) play poker (GA & MS laugh) I don’t know what life would be like without you here.
MS: I love you sweetheart.
GA: Love you too.
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MG: OutLoud was started to preserve the stories of the pre-Stonewall generation while we still could… but as it’s continued… it’s also documented several other generations… including the youngest one…
JM: Gabe Lopez always knew he was a boy, even though his birth certificate said otherwise.
MG: When he was 8 years old, Gabe came to StoryCorps in Arizona, where he lives, with his mom Chris, and they talked about how a weekend at camp for transgender kids transformed his life.
Chris López (CL): Do you remember when things really changed for you?
Gabe López (GL): We went to a camp. And I met three best friends — Luke, Brock, and Cooper. They were all transgender like me, so they all wanted to be boys. Brock taught me how to pee standing up.
CL: (laughs) And that was huge for you, right?
GL: Yeah. That’s why I say we’re bros. We know each other.
CL: Do you ever get scared about what it’s going to be like to grow up transgender?
GL: I’ve been wondering if when I’m older, a lot of people will try to hurt me or something … or …
CL: Like if they find out you were born a girl and they have a problem with it?
GL: Mhmm.
CL: You think they might try to hurt you in some way?
GL: Yeah.
CL: Were you ever worried about telling me that you were transgender?
GL: Yes.
CL: Did you ever try to tell me and then change your mind?
GL: Mmhmm.
CL: How many times do you think?
GL: I think like, four times.
CL: Four times?
GL: I was worried that you liked me as a girl.
CL: Because we used to have a lot of fun?
GL: Mmhmm.
CL: Do we still have fun?
GL: Mhhmm.
CL: So it doesn’t really matter if you’re a boy or a girl, right?
GL: Yeah.
CL: I didn’t know that you were dealing with that on your own. If I’d known I would have tried a little bit harder to have that conversation with you, and maybe start it myself.
GL: Um, do you worry about me?
CL: I worry about how other people might treat you. And it makes me upset to think about what you might have to go through.
You amaze me every day. And you can tell me anything, anytime, anywhere, and it won’t change how much I love you. I’ll always have your back.
GL: Thank you, mom.
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MG: That conversation was recorded on our mobile tour in 2015…
And just this year Gabe, who’s now 16 years old… came back for another conversation. This time with his dad, Julio.
LOPEZ UPDATE TAPE
GL: Did you ever feel jealous that it was my friends who taught me how to pee standing up?
JL: No, I don’t think so. But I was like, “that takes some talent to be able to do that.”
GL: When I first talked to you guys about how I felt, I was young, obviously, but I didn’t know the consequences that people could have for coming out to their parents.
JL: We always thought it was just kind of a phase and we told you that, right?
GL: Mm-hmm.
JL: And I remember saying that to you because it happened with my sister. You know, my sister was very tomboyish and hanging out with the boys but I noticed something different in you. So when you came out to us, it caught us by surprise, but it wasn’t a big surprise. You know what I mean?
GL: Yeah. I was really happy that you guys were super supportive, because I know that not many kids get that.
JL: We’ve always loved you, no matter what.
Like one of the pictures that I cherish, you were in a dress, you were holding a, a toy gun mm-hmm. And your Hulk shoes…
GL: (laughs)
JL: … and I mean, you know, even though that time was still kind of difficult for you.
I saw who Gabe was and who he was gonna become in the future. I’m always gonna be able to cherish that.
How would you describe yourself today?
GL: I’m really trying to up my art game, so I can be a tattoo artist.
JL: I bought you a tattoo gun. And then told you I can be your test dummy and I love it because, for your first tattoo on a person, that came out really good.
JL: What kind of man do you want to be?
GL: The kind of man that can help others see different viewpoints. And not specifically that they have to agree with that side but they acknowledge that it’s there.
What are your hopes for me?
JL: I want you to be happy. When I leave here I want you to be OK. That’s all I’m wanting for you.
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DI: I don’t think we have any idea what these stories…what this kind of collection of the wisdom of humanity is going to mean a hundred years from now. But it’s a way to pass wisdom from one generation to the next and it shows the best in us. And that’s one of those, you know, those lessons of StoryCorps; just reminds us of the fundamental goodness of humanity. And we have to trust in that, especially, when we go through rough times, like we’re going through today. But you know, that’s a lesson going back to Stonewall and Sylvia Rivera and, you know, the heroes who fought on that night, that you just can’t give up. And I do believe that good wins in the end.
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MG: This episode was produced by Jud Esty-Kendall and Jasmyn Morris with Max Jungreis, Von Diaz, and Kayla Lattimore. Our Technical Director is Jarrett Floyd.
JM: Artwork for this episode was created by Liz McCarty. Special thanks to Katie Simon and Nadia Reiman.
For more on StoryCorps’ initiatives… and to hear the rest of Dave Isay’s documentary “Remembering Stonewall”… go to our website…StoryCorps dot org…
MG: While you’re there… find out how to record your own conversation. I’m Michael Garofalo.
JM: And I’m Jasmyn Morris. Thanks for listening.
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