Jasmyn Morris (JM): Let’s go back one more time to one of Dave Isay’s early appearances on the Brian Lehrer show, in New York City. 

 

Michael Garofalo (MG): This one is from 2004…

 

Dave Isay: We’re trying to create an oral history of America from the bottom up and that’s what we’re getting, everyday people, just regular people talking in the booth and it’s been incredibly gratifying.

Brian Lehrer (BL): And so I know you’re a big-think kind of guy, what’s the larger impact that you hope this will have on America if your vision really succeeds in getting a lot of people around America doing this?

 

Dave Isay (DI): It’s a project about getting people to listen to each other. I mean, we live in such a culture of, you know, even when you look at the best seller list, you’ve got these books that are all the way on the right and all the way on the left. And it just seems like everybody is screaming at each other. There’s just this lack of real honest communication and it’s simply about getting people to sit down and talk to each other and listen.

 

BL: So now you’re going to get diehard Democrats and diehard Republicans to the booth to really listen to each other about where their views come from?

 

DI: Hey, you never know. You never know. We hope so.

 

[MUSIC]

 

MG: 20 years ago… that sounded like a whimsical idea… 

 

JM: But that comment would end up being kind of prophetic. In the years since that interview, the divides in this country have grown wider… and the stakes have gotten much, much higher.

 

MG: Listen to this StoryCorps participant named John Klinkel… he’s a veteran and he did multiple tours in Afghanistan… 

 

John Klinkel: I was out of the country from 2009 until about March of 2017. When I got back, the country was almost as angry as some of the factions I remember seeing in Afghanistan. It felt like a country that was always on the verge of either tearing itself, apart or picking a fight. And I didn’t remember that from when I left. So it was very strange for me to come back and feel the anger.

 

If you think of being in a deployed environment, you want to stay in the yellow light, cautious, ready to go but recognizing that things haven’t jumped off just yet. And it kind of felt like that. It felt like, Ooh, we’re in a situation here. Who knows what’s going to happen.

 

<MUSIC>

 

JM: Whenever there’s a national crisis or tragedy of some sort… StoryCorps has always tried to find ways to be helpful.

 

MG: When we started in 2003, New York was still recovering from the September 11 attacks. We offered families who had lost someone that day the opportunity to record their memories… to make sure their loved ones wouldn’t be forgotten.

 

JM: In earlier episodes you heard about how we brought a Mobile Booth to the Gulf Coast after Hurricane Katrina…

 

MG: And how we built new technology to help connect people during Covid.

 

JM: And so in this final episode we’ll learn what StoryCorps is doing NOW… 

 

MG: And where we might go in the future… I’m Michael Garofalo.

 

JM: And I’m Jasmyn Morris. From NPR, this is StoryCorps Then and Now – celebrating 20 years of StoryCorps.

 

[MUSIC]

 

MG: That clip youjust  heard from the veteran describing what it was like to come back to the US… that’s from an initiative called One Small Step. Our effort to address just how divided we’ve become.

 

JM: It brings strangers with opposing political beliefs together for a conversation – not to argue about politics… but just to learn about each other’s lives.

 

 MBS: We don’t expect them to or even want them or ask them to agree by the end of the conversation. 

 

MG: That’s Mary Bess Ser…. she works on One Small Step. 

 

MBS: We’re not asking people to come to any sort of common ground. We just want people to talk. 

 

JM: Because… we HAVE stopped talking to each other. A lot of us have a tendency to shut out people we don’t agree with… so One Small Step asks us to do the opposite… to actually get to know each other. 

 

MBS: The basis of the whole conversation is, you know, yes, we probably disagree on most things, but we’re having this conversation anyway. And by the end of it, We’ll see what happens.  

 

MG: You know, these days the voices telling us that we’re supposed to hate each other are so loud… and so pervasive… One Small Step really feels like David taking on Goliath… but we’ve never shied from a challenge before…

 

JM: And there’s scientific evidence that something like this can make a difference. One Small Step is rooted in a psychological concept called Contact Theory.

 

MG: The idea is that under very specific circumstances… when people who consider themselves enemies are put together one on one… they can actually come out the other side of that experience understanding and accepting each other… and sometimes they even become friends. 

 

JM: One of the keys is that phrase “very specific circumstances” – so StoryCorps tweaked our interview process to create a space where these conversations can happen.

 

MG: Almost all StoryCorps interviews are between two people who know and care about each other… but One Small Step interviews are between strangers. Here’s Mary Bess again…

 

MBS: The fact that they’re strangers really makes it less threatening. So say you have a really hard time talking about politics with your mother – that may or may not be my story –  it’s easier to have this conversation with a stranger because there’s no relationship at stake. You come to the table with a clean slate.  

 

JM: Here’s how it works – people sign up online – there’s a questionnaire that asks them to rate how they feel about social and economic issues… how important religion is in their lives…

 

MG: They can select from a list of terms to identify themselves… things like parent, grandparent or veteran.  And they write a short bio… describing themselves in their own words – and that gets shared with their interview partner. 

 

JM: Then someone from StoryCorps – like Mary Bess – matches them up with a stranger. 

 

MG: There’s a real person doing the pairing… not an algorithm.

 

MBS: They don’t see the reason why we’ve matched them. Really they show up to the interview, you know, not knowing at all what to expect, and usually people realize that they’ve come to the table with a lot of assumptions. 

 

JM: Here’s one example. It comes from Birmingham, Alabama… where Cassandra Adams, a liberal, was paired with David Wilson, a conservative. 

 

Cassandra Adams (CA): Lemme ask you this, when you read my bio…

 

David Wilson (DW): Mm-hmm.

 

CA: What did you think? And please be as honest as you feel comfortable because nothing would bother me.

 

DW: Um, so the first part my mind kicked into stereotype— 

 

CA: Mm-hmm.

 

DW: She’s probably dyed in the wool democrat, end of story. 

 

CA: [laughs]

 

DW: Second part was intriguing because you said something along the lines of an open mind and I thought, well this would be interesting.

 

CA: When I read your bio I just thought you were a white man. 

 

DW: [laughs]

 

CA: I thought I was gonna come in here and just be like… 

 

DW: [laughs] I don’t even know what it was! I don’t remember what it was!

 

CA: And that’s what’s so interesting to me! Is that I’m just like… 

 

DW: Stereotype!

 

CA: That’s exactly right! So I have to admit it because when you walked in the door and I stood up and introduce myself I was like ‘oops, oops, oops.’

 

[MUSIC]

 

MBS: To have this opportunity to match people, like they’re dating, and there’s always some sort of coincidence that we didn’t even know about. One interview, we found out that both participants, I mean, they couldn’t be more different, but they’re both foster parents, and we didn’t know that. That wasn’t even a point of connection where I thought, oh, they’re so different, but they’re foster parents. This will be a great conversation. Nope. I didn’t even know.  They had a great time. They wanted to go out for coffee afterwards. 

 

MG: Yeah. I mean, that really is something, right? Because we’re told constantly, talking about the other side, like, oh, those people, we can’t possibly have anything in common with them, and then it’s amazing to hear that there’s almost always something. 

 

MBS: Yeah, and it can be something completely uninteresting too it could be like, Oh, both of these people are into intermittent fasting, you know, like, (laughs) but they have something to talk about, you know, that, (laughs) and they realize that it’s the shared humanity aspect of it, you know. 

 

<MUSIC OUT>

 

JM: Here’s Stephanie Hamilton and Dana Coyle from Tucson, Arizona. Their connection… was parenting.

 

Stephanie Hamilton: I’ve been stretched and challenged far beyond I knew was possible. You know? And I know when we went from one to two, there was that question, you know, how do you do more than the one? Right? And your heart just seems to have all kinds of elastic in it. It doesn’t ever wear out. Right? You know? (Laughs)

 

Dana Coyle: Pretty amazing.

 

Stephanie Hamilton: Yeah. So how your parents influenced you were there things that you embraced or as you were parenting your own children?

 

Dana Coyle: That’s a great question. My dad would say, “Well you can do that if you want. I prefer this.” And he let us see that opportunity for ourselves. I remember when I told him I wanted to try smoking cigarettes. And he said, “Well, I personally prefer to breathe clean air, but if that’s your choice, then you go for it” and took the excitement out of it. (Laughs)

 

Stephanie Hamilton: But, you actually told him that. (Laughs)

 

Dana Coyle: Yeah. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Hamilton: That you had that relationship you could do that.

 

Dana Coyle: Yes. I feel like I lean toward that with my children

 

Stephanie Hamilton: You know I think what a gift your father gave you. So I’m very much a daddy’s girl. I connected with him. He was my junior senior high school principal. So 7th through 12th grade. And when I was going into 7th grade, you know, he made sure he had a conversation with me where he said, “You know, your mom and I think you’re pretty special but, because you’re my daughter, you’re probably going to have few friends and you probably won’t have anybody who will want to date you. And it’s not because you don’t have a lot to offer, but it’s primarily because of whose daughter you are.” The fact that he did that, laid that out for a 12-year-old girl, he set the tone for me to know what the road was going to be like. And we didn’t have a lot of conversations, you know? And I don’t know how often my father ever said I love you, but I know he loved me.

 

<MUSIC>

 

Dana Coyle: Who knew how that was going to go? Like you said, it’s unscripted. We are connected in probably twelve different ways I can think of, right? Like that. Let me give you a hug.

 

<MUSIC>

 

MBS: A lot of people think that, Oh, one small step, these conversations, people are going to attack each other, you know, it’s going to get ugly. And honestly, it’s the opposite. 

 

Some people don’t want to participate because they say, well, I don’t really know, I’m not really well versed in what’s going on in politics right now.

 

That’s where we say, you know, you don’t have to prepare for this experience. You don’t have to, this isn’t a debate. You don’t need to bring a briefcase full of, you know, the most recent articles. you just bring your life experience and talk about what you care about, what your life has been like and listen to someone else do the same and that’s pretty much it.

 

JM: So there ARE some other ways One Small Step interviews are different from standard StoryCorps conversations…

 

MG: Each One Small Step interview starts with the participants reading each other’s bios out loud… 

 

JM: And then a trained facilitator guides them through the conversation with questions from a list designed specifically for One Small Step. 

 

MBS: One of the questions is can you describe in your own words, your personal political values? The way it’s phrased you’re asked to talk about why you care about something, why it’s important to you, why you believe X, Y, or Z. So you’re still talking about your own life. You’re still telling stories, you know, how your grandfather influenced you, or, you know, you grew up poor.

 

MG: It takes politics out of a win and lose sort of binary right? 

 

MBS: Right.

 

MG: And makes it about understanding, which is, like, a completely different approach 

 

MBS: Yeah, I mean you can still walk out of the room and think, you know, that person everything they stand for is completely wrong, but, somehow, I enjoyed speaking with them, or somehow I kind of respect them. 

 

JM: This next conversation comes from Columbus, Georgia… Alton Russell is the former Chair of the Republican party there…

 

MG: And he was paired with Wane Hailes… who was the President of the local chapter of the NAACP.

 

These guys knew of each other… but they had never spoken before this interview.

 

Alton:  I went to Houston looking for a job in this little old bitty office. There was a guy sitting at the desk. He said, um, “What will you do?” And I said, “Anything as long as it’s legal.” He says, “Good answer. How about 40 dollars a week?” And I said, “Yes sir.” This was 1961. He said, by the way, “My name is George Bush.” It was George H. W. Bush. 

 

Wane: Really. 

 

Alton: Yes, sir. And he was running for Congress. What my job was is I made yard signs with a wooden stake and a piece of poster board and a stencil. 

 

Wane: But you’ve never run for office? 

 

Alton: No, never have. 

 

Wane: You’ve just been the kingmaker. 

 

Alton: Well, I don’t know about that. But I, no, I never have run. 

 

Wane: What do you do for a living?

 

Alton: Believe it or not, I’m a toilet paper salesman. 

 

Wane: Really? 

 

Alton: Yes, sir. 

 

Wayne: Two ply? 

 

Alton: Two ply, wipe it up, yeah. I’ve been there 40 years. 

 

Wayne: Is that right? 

 

Alton: Yeah. But you’ve done a lot of different things too, and I’m, I’m just wondering how in the world did you wind up in Columbus, Georgia? Did you take a wrong turn? 

 

Wane: I was working for the YMCA, and the YMCA here called and said, “Would I be interested?” But as the president of the NAACP, I can tell you how I got into that.

 

When we were, uh, growing up, about 8 or 9 years old, we were traveling to my grandfather’s house and we stopped at a laundromat. And when we went in,  they said, “We don’t wash black folks clothes here.” 

 

Alton: Mm-hmm.

 

Wane: Of course, they didn’t use black folks word. My father being a preacher, you know, he was cool, but my mother was ready to go off, you know, and we went on to my grandfather’s house and he got on the phone and he called the NAACP. About 30 minutes later, they said, going back up to the laundromat. And the white owner stood in the corner while we washed our clothes, red as a beet. So I’m like, Oh man, that was a memory that’s always been in my mind. 

 

Alton: Sure.

 

Wane: And how it worked. 

 

Alton: You know what? I have a good friend of mine. We went to breakfast one morning and when we left this guy that was in the restaurant with us came out and followed me to my truck. And he said, um, “Are you Alton Russell?” And I said, “Yes, I am.” He says, “Well, I saw you on TV the other day.” He said, “But I got a question. How can you be a Republican and eat breakfast with that black guy?” I said, “What did you say? That guy’s a friend of mine. You’re way off base.” We got things to do, and worrying about whether you’re a man, a woman, black, or white is not what you need to be focusing on.

 

Wane: Yeah. Well I’ll tell you what, I’ve got a whole different view of you. You know, my perception was, okay, he’s always going to be over here. I’m not going to even talk with him. But this has been, this has been eye opening for me. 

 

Alton: Well, it has to me too. 

 

Wane: And I can go tell some people, “Hey, Alton’s not that bad.”  He’s alright. 

 

Alton: It’s been fun. And I’m really glad to have met you; I sure am.

 

[MUSIC]

 

MBS: People have come to believe that these conversations are possible. So that in and of itself, I think, is an increase in hope. And I don’t know if you can quantify it, hope, but, um, you know, the belief that we can have these conversations, especially in an election year, you know, you wonder, well, is this the right time for one small step? And I think it’s even more important at those times because that’s when we most definitely do not want to talk to each other.

 

JM: Remember earlier we mentioned Contact Theory? That idea that if people from different groups come together 1 on 1… they can start to see each other as human?

 

MG: One Small Step interviews are definitely helping that to happen. But the harder thing to make happen… is to have that feeling generalize… to not be just about that one individual you met… but about a whole group… 

 

JM: Well, there’s a social psychologist at Yale, Jennifer Richeson… and she’s been studying One Small Step and the impact it’s having on participants… And she’s finding evidence that… for some people who record with us… this feeling IS beginning to generalize.

 

MBS: Sometimes people say, well, I didn’t see fireworks, it didn’t change me, but they really enjoyed the other person’s company and they were surprised by that, or They really felt like they understood each other and that really surprised them. It definitely chips away at that us versus them mentality just a little bit. And, you know, that’s why we say it’s one small step. It’s not a magic cure. We’re not calling it that. It’s just One Small Step in the right direction.  

 

MG: We’ll be back… right after the break. Stay with us…

 

[Break]

 

MG: So, Jasmyn, here we are… the last segment of the final episode of this series.

 

JM: We made it…

 

MG: Yeah. You know, one of the big takeaways for me looking back on these past twenty years… it’s related to what Mary Bess said a few minutes ago… about increasing hope. I think at its root, that’s a big part of what StoryCorps is about… and I don’t mean like cheap greeting card expressions of hope… but the kind of hope that grows out of hard work… and having people surprise you.

 

JM: Yeah, you see that even with One Small Step. Earlier this year, in a “Mr Isay Goes to Washington” moment… Dave brought One Small Step to the annual baseball game between members of Congress at Nationals stadium in DC… and he showed a video on the jumbotron challenging them to participate… and some of them actually did…

 

MG: And soon we’re rolling out this new do-it-yourself online version of One Small Step, so that strangers anywhere in the country can record an interview. You could have a person from the bluest county in America getting to know someone from the reddest county… I mean, for me personally at this moment in history… it’s just really incredible to work at a place where the underlying ethos is optimism. 

 

JM: Yeah and I think for me having listened to A LOT of StoryCorps interviews over the years… and it’s really beautiful to hear someone take the time to sit down with another person, especially an elder to capture wisdom from their family…  you know, before it’s lost. But for those of who get to do this work… we’ve been able to listen to thousands of these interviews, thousands of  grandparents… or parents or couples and absorb basically generations of wisdom… And I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this but I actually used to keep a folder of little clips from interviews whenever I heard little gems … that I just wanted to keep for myself, stuff I could use in my own life. What a gift.

 

MG: Very cool. Another thing that strikes me is that after 20 years… the basic idea of a StoryCorps interview really hasn’t changed that much… and I mean that in the best way… it’s held up… like no matter what’s going on in the world… this way of taking an hour to connect with somebody… we want it… maybe we even need it.

 

JM: And we found something that really helps illustrate that point. We dug up the very first SC interview ever recorded… 

 

DI:  I’m Dave Isay, and I’m interviewing Sandy Birnbaum, who’s my uncle, my great uncle.  

 

 Sandy Birnbaum (SB): Great Uncle. 

 

DI: Sandy, this is a very special session here because, like I said, we’re starting this whole national movement and you’re interview number one.

 

JM: When they spoke in 2003… Sandy’s wife of 55 years, Birdie, had died just a few months before. 

 

SB: The first date, she says, “I’ll meet you in the doorway just past the liquor store after work.” And I was standing in the doorway, and it’s inset a little bit.  And finally I see this vision of purple coming down the street, a purple hat and a purple coat, and I think she had purple shoes and stockings on, too and uh, it  was so glamorous. I says, What the hell am I, a two bit farm boy? This is such a sophisticated woman. I mean, she’s way beyond me. So I turned to the doorway, and I tried to duck out, but the door was locked. 

 

(Cries) If the door was open, it would have ended there and the best thing that… (Cries) Well anyhow, uh, the door was locked and, uh, we had just so much fun. 

 

DI: Birdie was the love of your life?

 

SB: Oh yeah, yeah. 

 

DI: What did you love about her?  

 

SB: You know I’ve never been asked that question. Just her warmth. She was everything that I wasn’t. She filled in all the, uh, deficiencies I had, which were considerable, mostly in regard to shyness and to, uh, self confidence and things like that. Everybody loved her, and she was a good person to have with you. Oh God,  I remember…

 

DI: Thank you, Sandy. So let me ask you a question. It is helpful to talk about this, yeah? 

 

SB: Uh.

 

DI: Or is it not?  

 

DI: Is it damaging to bring up? 

 

SB: Oh, no.. it’s a good feeling. Break out crying or you choke up and you can’t say a word, that’s a good feeling? Yeah, it is. Because, you know, you don’t have to pretend that you’re being a brave soul. (laughs) Gutting it through. You’re just letting go. It’s a good feeling.  

 

DI: Let me get you home.  

 

SB: Okay. 

 

DI: Thank you, Sandy.

 

<MUSIC>

 

JM: Hundreds of thousands of interviews later, it’s hard to imagine how many moments like this exist in the archive.

 

MG: And it’s hard to measure the impact of those moments…on the people who recorded interviews…and also on the people who have helped build StoryCorps…

 

JM: So we’re going to leave you with a conversation I recently had with Dave about just that…

 

JM: So, for this last episode, looking back on twenty years, so many people have contributed to making StoryCorps what it is now, of course. And we’ve all had life changes. I’ve gotten married, had children in this time.

 

DI: Me too. (Laughs)

 

JM: Right! Lots of people have put their whole selves into this work.  

 

DI: Yeah, well, I mean I think that everybody when they leave StoryCorps to a person and, you know, we’ve had thousands of employees at this point over the years, you know, everyone says that the best thing about StoryCorps are the people. The StoryCorps team has never ceased to amaze me and, you know, that’s why we are what we are. 

 

You know, true story and kind of crazy, but our first corporate sponsor was Hebrew National Hot Dogs. I don’t know why. I have absolutely no idea. 

 

JM: (Laughs)

 

DI: But their, um, motto famously was, We answer to a higher authority and, you know, I think that’s how all of us have felt at StoryCorps over these past 20 years, that this is sacred work and it draws a very special person to do this work. And it’s very hard work. There’s nothing viral or easy about StoryCorps. You know, but it’s drawn people who just refuse to give up and I think that’s part of the secret sauce and the magic of StoryCorps.

 

One of the original StoryCorps employees–we started with four or five–and one of them was a guy named Matt Ozug. And when he left he said at his goodbye party that “StoryCorps is hard work and love work and blood work.” You know, truer words have never been spoken. But, um, you know, it’s been worth every bit of it, and I’m incredibly grateful to the staff who helped make this dream come true.  

 

JM: So what are your hopes for the future, for the next 20 years?  

 

DI: Some people have said to me over the years that, you know, if aliens came to earth and they could only find one thing, they hoped it would be the StoryCorps archive because it really, it shows the best in us, but it also shows who we really are and that is the best in us.

 

Um, and I, you know, I hope that the ethos of StoryCorps, that the idea that all of our lives and all of our stories matter equally and infinitely, the idea that we should treat each other with respect, that nobody’s the worst thing they’ve they’ve ever done, that people should be given a second chance that it flows through the veins of the country and participating in StoryCorps and listening to StoryCorps stories becomes part of what it means to be an American and that StoryCorps grows into an institution that outlives us all.

 

<MUSIC>

 

JM: This episode was produced by MIchael Garofalo, Jud Esty-Kendall, and me. Our Technical Director is Jarrett Floyd. 

 

MG: Max Jungreis is our Associate Producer. Special thanks to Kerrie Hillman, Mary Bess Ser, Neil Griffith, and all our One Small Step partners… 

 

JM: Artwork for this episode was created by Liz McCarty, you can see it on our website. There, you can learn more about ALL the work we do…and how to add your story to the largest single collection of human voices ever gathered.

 

I’m Michael Garofalo.

 

JM: And I’m Jasmyn Morris. 

 

As always, thanks for listening.