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Jasmyn Morris (JBM): StoryCorps founder, Dave Isay, likes to say a microphone can give people the license to talk about difficult things that might otherwise never be explored… we’ve seen this time and time again over the last 16 years of recording people in conversation with one another…
…and so this season, we’re listening in on challenging moments between loved ones and friends, as they try to bridge divides, build connections, and come to a deeper understanding of one another.
It’s the StoryCorps podcast from NPR. I’m Jasmyn Morris… and this week, how a single night divided one family for decades…
Jennifer Mack (JM): We as a family unit we shut down and we never spoke of it again.
Glennette Rozelle (GR): No one ever explained to me what had happened. All I know is she came home and we started our lives over.
JBM: Glennette Rozelle and Jennifer Mack are talking about their mother, Minnie Jo Wallace, who raised them and their two older siblings outside of Oklahoma City during the 1970s…
…they remember their mom as a hard-working woman who liked to let loose from time to time…
JM: And in her younger days she used to love to dance. And she would get up and show you in the living room how she could cut a rug, as she called it. She’d say “we cut rugs!”
GR: Yup…
JBM: Minnie Jo also loved to go out dancing with her husband — the girls’ father, Glenn…
But some nights, Jennifer and Glennette could hear their parents fighting…then, one Valentine’s Day, in 1977, things escalated…
…their mother shot and killed their father…
At StoryCorps, Glennette and Jennifer sat down to remember that night. Jennifer was 10 years old at the time…Glennette was only 7…
And this was the first time they’d spoken about it in detail with one another…
GR: One night, I remember us coming home from tumbling practice. Mom said, “sit down and eat your dinner. I’m gonna in the bathroom and powder my nose.” And she went in there and shut the door and I remember Daddy running, saying, “You’re not gonna shut that door on me,” and he kicked open the door.
JM: They were arguing and she was trying to get to the phone and call the police. And he yanked the phone out of the wall.
GR: I remember hearing a “boom, boom,” and then something whizzing by my arm and hitting the butter dish, and then Daddy collapsing right in front of me. I didn’t understand what was happening.
JM: Emergency personnel started showing up. It was surreal, like we were watching something on TV, like it wasn’t really happening to us.
JBM: The police ruled the shooting self-defense…but Minnie Jo’s daughters had no idea…
JM: I don’t remember mom ever talking to any of us about it. She was very private and kept things to herself and if she found out you were saying stuff she would get angry with you as well.
GR: For years, I hated Mom. We’d be driving down the road and a certain song would come on the radio. And she’d look at me and say “You know I loved your daddy didn’t you?” But I didn’t know if she really did. Because why would she do what she did? When I moved out, I never come and saw her. I didn’t have a relationship with her so I never knew what to talk to her about. Before mom died, she told me that I would be the one that didn’t visit her very much at her grave…
JM: Do you feel like not talking about the shooting was a wedge?
GR: Yes. I think we could’ve gotten a lot off our chest if she would have just sat me down and talked to me. Probably about a year after Mom died I started asking questions. And he had been beating Mom in the face with a shoe that night. Evidently that’s what she was used to being beat on.
JM: Glenn was dangerous. He controlled with a fist. Or a leather belt.
GR: Why couldn’t y’all have told me this back then? You, you knew how I always treated mom.
JM: I’m not really even sure why I didn’t talk about it. Probably the biggest reason was talking about it in the early years brought about pretty vivid memories. Glenn was the only dad I ever knew. As long as I can remember mom was married to him. And, um, I remember really loving him because he was my dad. But I also was very uncomfortable around him because, even as young as I was there was a little part of me that was always fearful of him.
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JBM: Jennifer remembered Glenn’s abuse because she was older than her sister, Glennette…
…and so their StoryCorps conversation helped Glennette understand their mother better and what happened all those years ago…
GR: I knew she loved me. But she was too afraid to talk to me. And I know now how mama felt. She was our protector — a strong woman who would do anything for her family. And I wish I would have hugged her more, done more with her, loved her more…
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JBM: Next, we’ll hear how the effects of that night — and the secrecy surrounding it — reverberated through the generations of this family.
We’ll be right back.
<<MIDROLL – SUBARU>>
<<CROSS-PROMO>>
JBM: After Jennifer Mack came to StoryCorps with her sister, she sat down for a second conversation…
Jennifer Mack (JM): I’m Jennifer Mack. I’m in Oklahoma City, and I’m here with my daughter, Whitney Cotten.
Whitney Cotten (WC): I’m Whitney Cotten and I am here with my mother, Jennifer Mack. We’re not the typical mother-daughter pair.
JM : So what do you think is the strongest part of our relationship?
WC: Uh, honesty.
JBM: Honesty…but not when it came to this family secret.
For years, Jennifer was guarded about the shooting… But once she and her sister started talking about it, Jennifer began talking to her daughter too.
JM: Do you remember when you first learned that grandma had shot her spouse, my step-father?
WC: I was about 11 or 12. Grandma was still alive. And I was told by my cousin.
JM: I remember feeling sad that it came from somebody besides me. I spent so many years following the shooting trying to figure out who I wanted to be. And part of that time period was raising you and I always wanted to be able to be that open family that could talk about stuff. And the fact that you had found it out from somebody else made me feel like that opportunity was missed…. Were you ever fearful of grandma?
WC: No. I was never afraid for my safety with grandma. I was really proud of her because you know – when people talk about abusive situations and how there’s always this victim of a woman. I thought “you know, my grandmother was not that woman. She’s not that victim. She stands up and she fought back.” And it never occurred to me to ask about it. And ask about how much did she go through prior to that, that led up to her saying, “Ok, enough is enough.” What made her get to that point that that was her only option out? It didn’t occur to me that those were questions that I might have until I got there myself. And I realized that I’m in the same cycle.
JBM: In college, Whitney found herself in an abusive relationship. And the one person she wanted to talk to was her grandmother — Minnie Jo.
WC: And by that point she was gone. And I just kept thinking that I put myself in a situation I shouldn’t have been in. And my mother taught me better than this. It makes me feel like a failure that this thing she ran from, that I ran straight into it.
JM: My mom wasn’t a failure. Strong women can get caught in those situations where it’s difficult to get out of. And I am hopeful, when the time is right, that you are going to experience that good husband that she never got. And it’ll be easy. Then it’ll be hard. And then it’ll be easy again. And then it’ll be hard again. But it will be very fulfilling.
WC: I can only hope. With you and my grandmother, I feel like I am a stronger woman because you all went through that. And I got to learn from that.
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JBM: That was Whitney Cotten with her mother, Jennifer Mack, at StoryCorps in Oklahoma City…
After years of keeping the past quiet, it was talking about it that brought the family closer together.
Glennette and Jennifer now have “sisters days” every so often. And Whitney has found it easier to talk to both her mom, and her aunt.
A few months after her StoryCorps conversation, Whitney did find that relationship she and her mom hoped for… She’s now engaged to be married.
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JBM: If you want to have a conversation with someone in your life…maybe ask a question you’ve always wanted to…or say the thing you’ve been meaning to say…let us know! Write to us at [email protected] or leave us a message by calling 301-744-TALK. That’s 301-744-TALK….you can also use our free StoryCorps app to start the conversation. Use the keywords “difficult conversations”…so we can find it.
That’s all for this episode of the StoryCorps podcast. It was produced by Aisha Turner and edited by me, Jasmyn Morris… with scripting help from Sylvie Lubow. Our podcast producer is Jud Esty-Kendall. Our engineer is Jarrett Floyd… Our production assistant is Eleanor Vasilli. Zahra Crim is our intern. Fact-checking by Natsumi Ajisaka. And special thanks to StoryCorps facilitator Kevin Oliver.
To view original artwork created for this season… go to StoryCorps.org… where you can also find out what music we used in this episode.
For the StoryCorps podcast, I’m Jasmyn Morris. Thanks for listening.
